mitchellarossman
Regular poster
Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 70
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Reply with quote | #16 |
I don't know the effect of flourine content with glide at extreme cold.
After scouring the web for information from places like Eagle River Nordic, one might have to do their own experiments next winter in the extreme cold.
First, since these silicone fluids are taboo to the hard-core Nordic skiers, there might not be much information around.
Second, nobody will have tested the stuff under real AHU conditions (-20F to -30F). For example, the typical citizen ski race in MN gets canceled if the temps are below -12F.
I have both Toko Express and Not Wax. One experiment would be to first skate with the skis with a clean base as a control. Then put Toko on the left ski, NotWax on the right ski, skate some more, and compare results.
Previous to the AHU 2006, I had used both NotWax and Toko Express at the 24 Hours of Telemark event. They both worked fine and lasted maybe 2 hours. However, the temperatures were very warm in those three events (30F to 0F).
Too bad it is too late (i.e., warm) in the year here (MSP) to test them in my local park.
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MOCKBA
Member
Registered: 02/04/09
Posts: 33
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Reply with quote | #17 |
Wow Mitch, one wax for the right, another for the left, that's a darn cool experimental design! ( If I was doing it, I'd probably need to switch right and left legs for better control too, cuz my left leg is the lazy one ... not quite up to it since I broke it two summers back ... lopsided tele turns aren't looking too good  ).
I was totally clueless about this fluorine thing until a few days ago  But now I am digging through my sources ... the racers' techno gibberish is hard for me to grasp, they are talking about graphite and about powders for ever-more-stiff paraffin layers ... and I don't think I ever even heard that such stuff exists before  But the consensus is that fluorinated stuff doesn't work at very cold temperatures. I was also told that if a cold paraffin (like maybe Swix LF4) wears off too fast, that's cuz ... the ski is too cheap. I'm like, oh thank you very much guys.
And yes, the "extreme cold conditions" they talk about are mostly like -10 F.
Matt - I guess "good glide" or "awfull glide" is a matter of personal perspective then. Jeremy got to the Gateway maybe an hour and a half ahead of you, and yet he called the glide horrible, and yours was OK... Well I guess if I reach the Gateway in 10 or 11 hours, I wouldn't really cuss the glide too ... only it would tell me not to push to Melgeorges that night.
About Arizona being different from IA / MN ... you know, maybe it just looks that way cuz I got 3 or 4 pictures in all 100 miles of the plateau skiing ... and dozens more down in the canyon. I needed to take more pictures of the plateau, especially on the last day, but my camera stopped working. Narrow forest tracks and sunlit crowns of trees and little meadows ringed with pines are just like any beautiful woodland xc country anywhere else in the world. And as I already said, I look forward to going there again!
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mikeriemer
Regular poster
Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 54
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Reply with quote | #18 |
RE: pogies for skiing.
I think it is a great idea for that, just as it is for bikes. Here's my take.
I've been blessed with warm hands. To -10 (at least) I don't need anything on my hands inside my pogies. In fact, my hands will heat up and I'll hold onto the outside of the pogies at times to help them cool off.
Using pogies with no (or minimal) gloves means I don't saturate gloves in sweat.
If I would need to stop to fix a flat tire or use a stove. I pull out a pair of warm mitts. It is then easy to throw a handwarmer into the pogie while working on bike/stove.
When done, pogies are warm. Liner gloves are warm as well if you threw a handwarmer in the pogies and kept the liner gloves in there.
My pogies are from Wildfire Designs. They are just simple Cordura and fleece things. They have no special structural support, but they do droop a bit. Epic Designs pogies feature far more design and engineering and hold their shape without drooping.
To me the idea of ski pogies makes perfect sense. No sweated out gloves. If you could pull them down somehow it might be a good way to release heat. Or if you could just un-Velcro the attachment over the pole, then heat could release out that end as it would just be an open tube that happened to be hanging onto your arm. Maybe a bungie cord and cord lock pulls it tight around your forearm?
If we all keep the ideas coming, pretty soon the world is going to run out of problems! Hah!
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Kid Riemer
Minneapolis, Minnesota |
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mitchellarossman
Regular poster
Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 70
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Reply with quote | #19 |
Mockba:
10-15 years ago (they might still do), Eagle River Nordic put out a newsletter on ski waxes. The authors conducted scientific tests of various waxes that went on for volumes, year in and year out. You might dig around there.
Kid:
I will investigate porkies for use on my trekking poles too.
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mitchellarossman
Regular poster
Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 70
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mitchellarossman
Regular poster
Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 70
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Reply with quote | #21 |
Maybe there is no solution to make the current ski bases to glide well at -20F to -30F? The current ski bases, which are designed for glide from 32F to -10F, require a layer of water between the ski and the snow for glide to occur. At -20F and below, there is little or no water available, and, therefore, they do not glide.
Maybe, one needs to develop a new ski base for use below -20F?
In the time from 1998 to 2006, snow bikes went from normal mountain bikes running 2.5 to 3 inch wheels to the 4 inch tires of Pugsley. Maybe a similar revolution must happen in ski technology?
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MOCKBA
Member
Registered: 02/04/09
Posts: 33
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Reply with quote | #22 |
Thanks for the links! The ernordic.com was interesting too, at least I figured out how these super-stiff powdered paraffins look like. A revolution you say? How about a counterrevolution ... molded polyethylene surfaces from the age before porous base-layer structures (I mentioned that blue base Fishers from the early 80s get high marks in extreme cold) ? Maybe even another step back in time, to wood? (The Britts in 1911 didn't like the wood, but they might have had just a bit too much grease or tar over it? ) Drats. It's totally intriguing and tickles my retro-gear personality just the right way ... but I suspect that I won't have any answers till next winter.
Arrgh, here we go, from real testing back to armchair, huh?
"The world is going to run out of problems", LOL. The Arrowhead for the skiers is a true-sense survival race now ... with the emphasis on survival and none on the "race" ... cuz almost all of the skiers DNF. So if, just if we can figure out a solution or two, it just might turn AHU ski division into a survivable event with a little bit of a race flavor. Like the bikers have now!
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mitchellarossman
Regular poster
Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 70
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Reply with quote | #23 |
Here is my question posed to Kevin Sweeney of Swix:
Message Subject: Ski Waxing for -20 to -35F
Message: Dear Kevin:
The Arrowhead Ultra is a 135 mile unsupported race across northern Minnesota on a snowmobile trail the first week in February. Many of us have found out the hard way over the past 3-4 years that classic and skate skis don't glide at -20F to -35F, which are typical nightime temperatures. Then, one is forced to walk with their skis. There are no facilities to apply wax after the start of the race.
How can one approach this seeming insolvable problem? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Mitchell, Wow, quite a race! If we made an extremely cold Cera F, that would be my answer, however our coldest FC7 and FC7BS run to about -22F, the 7BS perhaps a bit lower due to the moly content which is working as a lubricant in these dry friction envrironments. I would try the 7BS after really hardening up the base. We ran HF4BD and FC1S in -29F temps in Fairbanks. The HF4BW and FC7BS run colder.................. My best suggestion for this would be: 1. Clean ski with "hot scrape method" several times to remove all old wax, dirt, oils etc. Have extrememly little / very very fine structure. 2. Wax ski base with HF4BW 3 times. Scraping and brushing inbetween each layer, saturating pores with cold, hard, durable (flouro and moly). 3. Apply HF4BW and CH3 1:1 ratio (iron on HF4BW and when warm / molten add CH3 powder). Scrape and brush out. 4. Apply FC7BS. Rub on two layers, iron in, brush out. The 7BS is also easily reapplied w/ hand cork for later in the race. Apply Swix FC7BS Turbo Solid. Rub on layer & lightly cork in. Rub on 2nd layer. Iron in w/ temp. at 150C, one pass length of ski. Let cool 5 minutes. Brush out with Wild Boar Brush (T0164B/T198B) and finish polish with Blue Nylon (T0160/T186).
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mitchellarossman
Regular poster
Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 70
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MJMaxwell
Member
Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 36
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Reply with quote | #25 |
The Instructables pogies look like something to try. I'm not clear on how they solved MOCKBA's problem of having them slip down on the pole though. The socks I tried didn't slip because of the elastic in the cuff like you suggest, but they were a pain to get on and off. If you don't have your hands free you're less likely to eat, drink, change clothes, etc. and that worries me. I'm thinking some sort of wire stiffener that attaches to the ski pole would be a possibility. My sister has made fleece hoodies and sweaters for me before, perhaps she'd be willing to give these a try.
The guy in the center of this photo from the ITI appears to have something like pogies on his ski poles (though he's not using them). I wonder how they worked. It's all armchair testing until the snow flies.
BTW I sent in my entry for the Tuscobia Ultra today. I hope it gets there in time.
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MJMaxwell
Member
Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 36
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mitchellarossman
Regular poster
Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 70
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Reply with quote | #27 |
I agree with you on not eating, drinking, etc. if you can't get your hands out easily.
On the second morning of this year's event, I did not want to take off my North Face expedition mitts for fear of frostbite. That led me to get into a big hole on nutrition from which I did not recover. 
So we need to inovate here. Since the current ski poagies slip down the pole or are a hassle to put on and take off, we need to come up with a rigid design that we just slip our hands into.
A couple of years ago, I tried to make a set using the closed cell sleeping pad material. I will revisit that design and maybe try the aluminized closed air cell insulation material.
I am also experimenting on very high calorie brownies for this years race. From a post I put on Summit Post last February, the Big Sur bar seemed to be the highest calorie bar around. So I have been taking a standard brownie mix, tripling the oil, doubling the egg, and adding buckets of coconut, honey-coated peanuts, and chocolate. Product is very chewable while frozen (no water in it), and good for eating while hiking, but not for running. Too much fat in your stomach for running. 
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JimR
New Member
Registered: 01/25/09
Posts: 5
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Reply with quote | #28 |
I'vs tried Pogies also and had the same problems they slide down. They need some sort of stiffner. Or how about a little bit of velcro on your arm to hold them up. Pogies are cheaply available from snowmobile catalog places |
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mitchellarossman
Regular poster
Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 70
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Reply with quote | #29 |
Thanks for the info. I only get one ride a year on a snowmobile, and that is at the AHU. 
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